Specialties: Voted BEST Gay Nightclub by the Review-Journal 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 Located in the heart of Las Vegas' Gay Fruit Loop District. Established ... PIRANHA WEEKEND PARTY PACKAGE – 2 Bottles of New Amsterdam // $350. Baronet – Skyy and Chandon // $300. Grand Duchess – Absolut, Mumm // $350. Princess – Ciroc, Veuve Cliquot // $550. Queen – Absolut Elyx, Veuve Clicquot // $650. Empress – Belvedere, Dom Perignon // $1025.LE Parties and Piranha Nightclub, the #1 Gay Club in Las Vegas, bring you an all-night EDM experience to gear up for EDC. We have three different rooms with superstar gay EDM DJs, the hottest go-go dancers, plus surprises throughout the night!Piranha is a gay club in Las Vegas. Piranha gets busy after Midnight and stays open late. Its nondescript building hides whats inside. After you get through the intense security (pat down and metal detector), the front door opens to the dance floor. Behind the dance floor is a bar. The look of Piranha on the inside reminds me of a cave.Gipsy. After surviving arson, lawsuits, and a 2021 demolition during its famed 40-year history, the Gipsy nightclub is now planning a major return in 2022. Paperwork has been filed to build a new ...Piranha Nightclub, Las Vegas: See 31 reviews, articles, and 12 photos of Piranha Nightclub, ranked No.748 on Tripadvisor among 748 attractions in Las Vegas. Piranha Nightclub. Piranha Nightclub is quickly gaining a name for itself as one of the premier LGBTQ nightclubs in Las Vegas. It offers plenty of special events throughout the week. Whatever night you visit you’ll have fun with the VIP bottle service, $5-well drinks and the $5-well shots. Gay Bars & Clubs Nightlife. Piranha is the city’s famous gay nightclub with an impressive list of celebrity performers and guests if you're looking for a truly entertaining night. ... Located in the University District east of the Las Vegas Strip, Piranha showcases funky-themed interiors. Piranha’s three rooms have a unique genre, ...Piranha Nightclub: Just ok - See 31 traveler reviews, 12 candid photos, and great deals for Las Vegas, NV, at Tripadvisor. Specialties: Voted BEST Gay Nightclub by the Review-Journal 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 Located in the heart of Las Vegas' Gay Fruit Loop District. Established ... About Piranha Nightclub. Piranha Nightclub was voted BEST Gay Nightclub by the Review-Journal 2014 & 2016. Located in the heart of Las Vegas' Gay Fruit …537 reviews of Piranha Nightclub "Really Piranha is just an extension of 8 1/2 Ultra Lounge. However it's an experience all it's own. It's a two story dance hall. There's a VIP section up the stairs. And they feature DJ's and go-go boys all the time. It's an awesome place to shake your blues away. I really love the vibe at Piranha. So yeah, I guess that's about it.Piranha Nightclub, Las Vegas: See 31 reviews, articles, and 12 photos of Piranha Nightclub, ranked No.748 on Tripadvisor among 748 attractions in Las Vegas.Visit the post for more.Palm Eastern Mortuary & Cemetery. Although he will always be remembered as the life of the party and larger than life itself, Paul Anthony San Filipo, a great friend to many and former owner of Gipsy Nightclub and Piranha Nightclub has left this world peacefully on April 4th, 2022. Paul San Filipo was born on March 5th 1964 outside of Los ... Piranha Nightclub, Las Vegas: See 22 reviews, articles, and 12 photos of Piranha Nightclub, ranked No.518 on Tripadvisor among 518 attractions in Las Vegas. Paul purchased Gipsy Nightclub from Chuck Melfi in 1994, once Las Vegas’ most popular LGBTQ+ nightclub. Gipsy nightclub became a family business with Paul’s mother, Marilyn ‘Mother’ San Filipo, helping to manage the Gipsy Nightclub until her retirement. His mother Marilyn passing in 2001 at the age of 66 was extremely difficult for Paul.Sep 20, 2023 · 31 Reviews. #274 of 425 Nightlife in Las Vegas. Nightlife, Gay Clubs & Bars. 4633 Paradise Rd, Las Vegas, NV 89169-7112. Open today: 10:00 PM - 5:00 AM. Save. Top 10 Best Share Nightclub in Las Vegas, NV - November 2023 - Yelp - Piranha Nightclub, Free Zone, XS Nightclub, Charlie's Las Vegas, The Laundry Room, The Garage, The Chandelier, ... Piranha Nightclub. 3.4 (623 reviews) Dance Clubs Gay Bars $$ Eastside. This is a placeholder. Established in 2006.Piranha Nightclub, Las Vegas: See 22 reviews, articles, and 12 photos of Piranha Nightclub, ranked No.509 on Tripadvisor among 509 attractions in Las Vegas. per adult. Las Vegas Club or Pool Crawl Experience. 148. Food & Drink. from. ₹8,412.95. per adult. Las Vegas VIP Entry to 2 Nightclubs with Party Bus. 21. The owner of a Paradise Road nightclub in Las Vegas filed for bankruptcy reorganization Monday. The Chapter 11 filing was made by Manhattan West LLC, which does business as Piranha Nightclub and 8 1/2 Ultra Lounge at 4633 Paradise Road, south of Harmon Avenue. The bankruptcy filing listed a "doing business as Gypsy Nightclub.''.Visit the post for more.Piranha Nightclub. 31 reviews. #278 of 427 Nightlife in Las Vegas. Gay Bars. Closed now. 10:00 PM - 5:00 AM. Write a review. What people are saying. “ …Skip the lines with expedited entry for you and your guest by your Piranha Nightclub VIP Host. (included are all taxes, fees, and gratuities) Work with our Galavantier Concierge Managers to arrange transportation, hotel rooms, show tickets, and other activities for the best experience during your stay. Get your own SECURITY GUARD for your ...Top 10 Best Rave Club in Las Vegas, NV - March 2024 - Yelp - XS Nightclub, Sea Mountain Nude Day Club Las Vegas, Club Ego, Piranha Nightclub, Player 1 Video Game Bar - Las Vegas, The Golden Tiki, Don't Tell Mama, Drai's Nightclub, TAO Asian Bistro & Nightclub, Hakkasan NightclubOct 17, 2009 · Video from the dance floor of Piranha Nightclub in Las Vegas, NV - http://www.piranhavegas.com - http://www.lasvegasfruitloop.com Top 10 Best Rave Club in Las Vegas, NV - March 2024 - Yelp - XS Nightclub, Sea Mountain Nude Day Club Las Vegas, Club Ego, Piranha Nightclub, Player 1 Video Game Bar - Las Vegas, The Golden Tiki, Don't Tell Mama, Drai's Nightclub, TAO Asian Bistro & Nightclub, Hakkasan Nightclub Piranha Nightclub: A Las Vegas, NV Bar. Known for Outdoor Space. Piranha Nightclub: A Las Vegas, NV Bar. ... They frequently play host to well-known drag queens and are an active part of Gay Days ... Skip to main content Specialties: Voted BEST Gay Nightclub by the Review-Journal 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 Located in the heart of Las Vegas' Gay Fruit Loop District. Established ... Find Roxxxy Andrews Las Vegas tickets, appearing at Piranha Nightclub in Nevada along with DJ CHRIS TAVI, DJ V, and JDiesel on Apr 13, 2024 at 10:00 pm. A physical current, non-expired, valid photo ID is required of every guest visiting Piranha Ultra Lounge and all guests must be 21 years of age or older. ACCEPTED; United States, Canada, England, Ireland, European Issued Driver’s License or DMV Identification Cards; Passports; Military ID Cards; Mexico Voter ID; NOT ACCEPTED Skip the lines with expedited entry for you and your guest by your Piranha Nightclub VIP Host. (included are all taxes, fees, and gratuities) Work with our Galavantier Concierge Managers to arrange transportation, hotel rooms, show tickets, and other activities for the best experience during your stay. Get your own SECURITY GUARD for your ...Jerry Masini, the owner of Gipsy and Piranha Nightclubs, shares his enthusiasm: “The relaunch of Gipsy is a tribute to the LGBTQ+ community and Las Vegas’ nightlife. We are bringing back a sanctuary for performers and guests to express themselves freely in a space that respects our history and ushers in new entertainment experiences.”Paul purchased Gipsy Nightclub from Chuck Melfi in 1994, once Las Vegas’ most popular LGBTQ+ nightclub. Gipsy nightclub became a family business with Paul’s mother, Marilyn ‘Mother’ San Filipo, helping to manage the Gipsy Nightclub until her retirement. His mother Marilyn passing in 2001 at the age of 66 was extremely difficult for Paul.Skip the lines with expedited entry for you and your guest by your Piranha Nightclub VIP Host. (included are all taxes, fees, and gratuities) Work with our Galavantier Concierge Managers to arrange transportation, hotel rooms, show tickets, and other activities for the best experience during your stay. Get your own SECURITY GUARD for your ...Location. 8 1/2 and Piranha Nightclub. ( Directions) 4633 Paradise Road, Las Vegas, 89169. Phone: 702-791-0100. Phone: 702-379-9500.Top 10 Best Drag Queen Shows in Las Vegas, NV - March 2024 - Yelp - Faaabulous The Show, Hamburger Mary's - Las Vegas, The Garden, Piranha Nightclub, Flex Cocktail Lounge, ... Piranha Nightclub. 3.5 (625 reviews) Dance Clubs Gay Bars $$ Eastside. This is a placeholder. Established in 2006.Feb 4, 2024 · Piranha Nightclub: Lovely people made the night - See 31 traveler reviews, 12 candid photos, and great deals for Las Vegas, NV, at Tripadvisor. Piranha Nightclub Reservations. 1 person. Bottle Service Packages & Bottles. Search. Pricing includes admission for up to 8 guests per package or 4 guests per individual bottle. Minimum spends or additional admission fees may apply depending on party size.Piranha Nightclub, Las Vegas: See 31 reviews, articles, and 12 photos of Piranha Nightclub, ranked No.748 on Tripadvisor among 748 attractions in Las Vegas.Piranha is a gay club in Las Vegas. Piranha gets busy after Midnight and stays open late. Its nondescript building hides whats inside. After you get through the intense security (pat down and metal detector), the front door opens to the dance floor. Behind the dance floor is a bar. The look of Piranha on the inside reminds me of a cave.Piranha Nightclub, Las Vegas: See 31 reviews, articles, and 12 photos of Piranha Nightclub, ranked No.748 on Tripadvisor among 748 attractions in Las Vegas.The Las Vegas Strip may be home to nightclubs with world-class DJs and celebrity guests, but Piranha, on Paradise Road, is proof that the LGBTQ community can throw an equally impressive party off-Strip. This intimate nightclub, often graced by entertainers from RuPaul’s Drag Race, is known as oneSkip to main content. Review. Trips Alerts Sign inLE Parties and Piranha Nightclub, the #1 Gay Club in Las Vegas, bring you an all-night EDM experience to gear up for EDC. We have three different rooms with superstar gay EDM DJs, the hottest go-go dancers, plus surprises throughout the night! PIRANHA NIGHTCLUB - Updated March 2024 - 251 Photos & 625 Reviews - 4633 S Paradise Rd, Las Vegas, Nevada - Dance Clubs - Phone Number - Yelp. Piranha Nightclub. 3.5 (625 reviews) Claimed. $$ Dance Clubs, Gay Bars. Closed 10:00 PM - 5:00 AM (Next day) Hours updated 2 weeks ago. See hours. See all 274 photos. Write a review. Add photo. 31 Reviews. #274 of 425 Nightlife in Las Vegas. Nightlife, Gay Clubs & Bars. 4633 Paradise Rd, Las Vegas, NV 89169-7112. Open today: 10:00 PM - 5:00 AM. Save.Drai’s Nightclub. Location: Cromwell. Days Open: Friday – Sunday. VIP Pricing: From $700. Featured Performers: Wiz Khalifa, Rick Ross, Gucci Mane, Big Sean. Drai’s is an iconic name in Vegas, having once occupied the Barbary Coast Hotel and Casino as an after-hours club before the hotel’s closure. 8 1/2 and Piranha Nightclub. ( Directions) 4633 Paradise Road, Las Vegas, 89169. Phone: 702-791-0100. Phone: 702-379-9500. Piranha Nightclub, Las Vegas: See 29 reviews, articles, and 12 photos of Piranha Nightclub, ranked No.755 on Tripadvisor among 755 attractions in Las Vegas. How can you go wrong with FREE COVER and $25 ALL YOU CAN DRINK ALL NIGHT!!! See you at Piranha Nightclub #PIRANHAVEGAS #GAYVEGAS Located in the HISTORIC Fruit Fruit Loop Las Vegas. Upvote 3 Downvote. Myke500 July 12, 2015. Been here 50+ times. 2 clubs in one, good atmosphere. Piranha Nightclub Profile and History. Piranha Nightclub is a company that operates in the Restaurants industry. It employs 6-10 people and has $1M-$5M of revenue. The company is headquartered in Las Vegas, Nevada.Aug 1, 2020 · Gipsy’s became a meeting place for LGBTQ community clubs and organizations and was a sponsor for Las Vegas’s first Gay Pride celebrations. Melfi said, “It was great fun for the 16 – 18 years I owned it.” “Gipsy started it all,” Melfi said. The “Fruit Loop” at Paradise and Naples became the “gayborhood” for Las Vegas. visit the post for more. enter for a chance to win a pair of tix to pat benetar & neil giraldo at pearl concert theatre. 31 Reviews. #296 of 465 Nightlife in Las Vegas. Nightlife, Gay Clubs & Bars. 4633 Paradise Rd, Las Vegas, NV 89169-7112. Open today: 10:00 PM - 5:00 AM. Save.LE Parties and Piranha Nightclub, the #1 Gay Club in Las Vegas, bring you an all-night EDM experience to gear up for EDC. We have three different rooms with superstar gay EDM DJs, the hottest go-go dancers, plus surprises throughout the night!Top 10 Best Piranha in Las Vegas, NV - October 2023 - Yelp - Piranha Nightclub, Free Zone, The Phoenix Bar & Lounge, QUADZ, The Golden Tiki, Charlie's Las Vegas, Fun Hog Ranch, Drai's Nightclub, Hakkasan Nightclub, The Garden There's an issue and the page could not be loaded. Reload page. 43K Followers, 550 Following, 5,428 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from Piranha Nightclub (@piranhavegas) The owner of a Paradise Road nightclub in Las Vegas filed for bankruptcy reorganization Monday. The Chapter 11 filing was made by Manhattan West LLC, which does business as Piranha Nightclub and 8 1/2 Ultra Lounge at 4633 Paradise Road, south of Harmon Avenue. The bankruptcy filing listed a "doing business as Gypsy Nightclub.''.Gipsy. After surviving arson, lawsuits, and a 2021 demolition during its famed 40-year history, the Gipsy nightclub is now planning a major return in 2022. Paperwork has been filed to build a new ...The Las Vegas Strip may be home to nightclubs with world-class DJs and celebrity guests, but Piranha, on Paradise Road, is proof that the LGBTQ community can throw an equally impressive party off-Strip. This intimate nightclub, often graced by entertainers from RuPaul’s Drag Race, is known as one1 room, 2 adults, 0 children. 4633 Paradise Rd, Las Vegas, NV 89169-7112. Read Reviews of Piranha Nightclub.Piranha Nightclub. 31 reviews. #278 of 427 Nightlife in Las Vegas. Gay Bars. Closed now. 10:00 PM - 5:00 AM. Write a review. What people are saying. “ …Feeling Social? Stay up to date and follow us! Main Home; Tickets; Venue Info; Meet The Queens; Bottle Service Menu. Bottle Service Reservation619 reviews of Piranha Nightclub "Really Piranha is just an extension of 8 1/2 Ultra Lounge. However it's an experience all it's own. It's a two story dance hall. There's a VIP section up the stairs. And they feature DJ's and go-go boys all the time. It's an awesome place to shake your blues away. I really love the vibe at Piranha. So yeah, I guess that's about it.Piranha Nightclub. 2 Votes. Piranha is, from the outside, an ordinary little gay club in the heart of the Las Vegas Fruit Loop. But unlike most things in Vegas, the …Piranha Nightclub: Just ok - See 31 traveler reviews, 12 candid photos, and great deals for Las Vegas, NV, at Tripadvisor.Feeling Social? Stay up to date and follow us! Main Home; Tickets; Venue Info; Meet The Queens; Bottle Service Menu. Bottle Service ReservationTerry Torres. Owner, Barista. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aenean commodo ligula eget dolor. Aenean massa. Cum sociis natoque penatibus etOct 8, 2023 · Piranha Nightclub: Fab interior - See 31 traveler reviews, 12 candid photos, and great deals for Las Vegas, NV, at Tripadvisor. Las Vegas Advisor Menu. Visit. QOD. Vegas News. FAQ. Most Frequent Health Transportation Tipping Hotels Gambling. Newsletter. Top Ten. LVA Youtube. Free Things To Do. Webcams. Parking Fees. Strip Parking Downtown Parking Off-Strip Parking. ... Piranha Nightclub Off Strip (702) 791-0100 | Official Website. Top 10 Best Spanish Dance Clubs in Las Vegas, NV - December 2023 - Yelp - La Jolla Nightclub, Mango Tango Nightclub, El Rincon Nayarita, Senor Frog's, Marquee Nightclub, Piranha Nightclub, TAO Asian Bistro & Nightclub, La Hacienda Nightclub, Gold Spike, Embassy Nightclub Read Piranha Nightclub reviews from real travellers and get information on what you need to know before you visit.Top 10 Best Gogo Bars in Las Vegas, NV - March 2024 - Yelp - Piranha Nightclub, The Golden Tiki, XS Nightclub, GhostBar, Drai's Nightclub, EBC at Night, The Peppermill Restaurant & Fireside Lounge, DAYLIGHT Beach Club, Carnaval Court Las Vegas, Marquee Nightclub Piranha is a gay club in Las Vegas. Piranha gets busy after Midnight and stays open late. Its nondescript building hides whats inside. After you get through the intense security (pat down and metal detector), the front door opens to the dance floor. Behind the dance floor is a bar. The look of Piranha on the inside reminds me of a cave. 4605 Paradise Road, Las Vegas, NV 89169. Mon-Wed: Closed Thurs: - 10pm-3am Fri: 7pm - 4am Sat: 9pm - 4am Sun: 11am - 2pm & 10pm - 3am. Gipsy is a 21+ venue. Cover Charges may apply during weekends, special events, … Guide to Piranha Nightclub, Gay Club in Las Vegas - rating, atmosphere, working hours, address, map, directions and nearby LGBTQ+ friendly venues. The Las Vegas LGBTQ+ dance scene is friendly and bursting with energy. The “gayest spot on the Strip” is Queen Las Vegas. Supper club meets drag show meets dance party, the restaurant/bar space transforms into a dance club on Friday and Saturday nights, but there’s also a boozy drag brunch and RuPaul’s Drag Race viewing parties so …[tm_pb_section admin_label=”section”][tm_pb_row admin_label=”row”][tm_pb_column type=”4_4″][tm_pb_title admin_label=”Title” title=”Gallery̶…Oct 17, 2009 · Video from the dance floor of Piranha Nightclub in Las Vegas, NV - http://www.piranhavegas.com - http://www.lasvegasfruitloop.com Jul 31, 2019 · The gay scene in Las Vegas includes several local clubs and bars located just off the Strip. Many of these Las Vegas LGBTQ bars and clubs are known for their inviting, laid-back vibe and nightly events and entertainment. You'll find plenty of places to gamble or play pool, indulge in tasty adult drinks at great prices, dance and meet new people. Keep reading for our list of the 10 best gay ... Mar 30, 2022 · Please complete the form below to help us reconnect you with your lost items. We will only contact you in the event that we have located your lost item. Responses can take up to 72 hours of finding your lost items. You may also visit us onsite during normal business hours starting at 10pm nightly to reclaim lost and found items. Skip to main contentSidewalk Drag Queens, a Gay Chapel, and Restaurant Await at Queen Las Vegas. ... Piranha Nightclub. 4633 Paradise Road, , NV 89169 (702) 791-0100 Visit Website. Foursquare FreeZone. Specialties: Voted BEST Gay Nightclub by the Review-Journal 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 Located in the heart of Las Vegas' Gay Fruit Loop District. Established ... Piranha Nightclub, Las Vegas: See 29 reviews, articles, and 12 photos of Piranha Nightclub, ranked No.755 on Tripadvisor among 755 attractions in Las Vegas.Skip to main content. Review. Trips Alerts Sign inHow can you go wrong with FREE COVER and $25 ALL YOU CAN DRINK ALL NIGHT!!! See you at Piranha Nightclub #PIRANHAVEGAS #GAYVEGAS Located in the HISTORIC Fruit Fruit Loop Las Vegas. Join DJ Rockstar Aaron Sunday January 27, 2013 at Gipsy Nightclub. Doors 11pm Show with Glamazon's Kenneth Blake, Coco Vega and India …
Sunday December 31st, 2023 NYE . Saturday December 30th, 2023 . Friday December 29th, 2023. C2 tactical tempe
Top 10 Best Rave Club in Las Vegas, NV - March 2024 - Yelp - XS Nightclub, Sea Mountain Nude Day Club Las Vegas, Club Ego, Piranha Nightclub, Player 1 Video Game Bar - Las Vegas, The Golden Tiki, Don't Tell Mama, Drai's Nightclub, TAO Asian Bistro & Nightclub, Hakkasan NightclubSep 20, 2023 · 31 Reviews. #274 of 425 Nightlife in Las Vegas. Nightlife, Gay Clubs & Bars. 4633 Paradise Rd, Las Vegas, NV 89169-7112. Open today: 10:00 PM - 5:00 AM. Save. Piranha Nightclub: Fab interior - See 31 traveler reviews, 12 candid photos, and great deals for Las Vegas, NV, at Tripadvisor. Skip to main content. Discover. Trips. ... #297 of 464 Nightlife in Las Vegas. Nightlife, Gay Clubs & …755 likes, 6 comments - piranhavegas on December 3, 2021: "‘Tis the season! ️ Party with the hottest crew in all of Las Vegas. #Vegas #Nightlife" Piranha Nightclub on Instagram: "‘Tis the season! ️🎄 Party with the hottest crew in all of Las Vegas.Mar 30, 2022 · Please complete the form below to help us reconnect you with your lost items. We will only contact you in the event that we have located your lost item. Responses can take up to 72 hours of finding your lost items. You may also visit us onsite during normal business hours starting at 10pm nightly to reclaim lost and found items. CONTACT US. [email protected]. General Info: 702-791-0100. VIP Reservations 702-791-0100 Ext. 3. 4633 Paradise Rd. Las Vegas, NV 89169. Directions. PIRANHA PRESENTS PLANE JANE + NAOMI SMALLS FROM RUPAULS DRAG RACE + ELISHALY D'WITSHES (QUEEN OF THE BUS)3 ROOMS, 3 DJS, 3 SHOWS AND PIRANH.About Piranha Nightclub. Piranha Nightclub was voted BEST Gay Nightclub by the Review-Journal 2014 & 2016. Located in the heart of Las Vegas' Gay Fruit …PIRANHA WEEKEND PARTY PACKAGE – 2 Bottles of New Amsterdam // $350. Baronet – Skyy and Chandon // $300. Grand Duchess – Absolut, Mumm // $350. Princess – Ciroc, Veuve Cliquot // $550. Queen – Absolut Elyx, Veuve Clicquot // $650. Empress – Belvedere, Dom Perignon // $1025. Piranha Nightclub. 3. 31 reviews. #278 of 427 Nightlife in Las Vegas. Gay Bars. Closed now. 10:00 PM - 5:00 AM. Write a review. How can you go wrong with FREE COVER and $25 ALL YOU CAN DRINK ALL NIGHT!!! See you at Piranha Nightclub #PIRANHAVEGAS #GAYVEGAS Located in the HISTORIC Fruit Fruit Loop Las Vegas. Join DJ Rockstar Aaron Sunday January 27, 2013 at Gipsy Nightclub. Doors 11pm Show with Glamazon's Kenneth Blake, Coco Vega and India …31 Reviews. #296 of 465 Nightlife in Las Vegas. Nightlife, Gay Clubs & Bars. 4633 Paradise Rd, Las Vegas, NV 89169-7112. Open today: 10:00 PM - 5:00 AM. Save.4633 Paradise Rd. Our Rating Neighborhood At Naples Dr. Phone 702/791-0100 Web site Piranha Las Vegas Other No cover. About our rating system. The jewel of the Fruit Loop—the small “boystown” of Las Vegas—is this see-and-be-seen club for the city’s gay elite. The brick facade makes the building look unassuming from the outside, but ....